Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 29, 2010, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Comparing Rebirth against another in-combat resurrection skill is as pointless as comparing apples against oranges.

Apples:

- Easy to peel
- Taste better
- Easy to eat, no stringy parts

Oranges:

- Irritating to peel
- Don't taste as good
- Difficult to eat, have stringy parts

Apples are superior, and I just ruined that pathetic "apples to oranges" expression.

WHAT NOW?

Daesu · Jan 29, 2010, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

But why not just use rez scrolls and save a slot? I'd like to do as much bar compression as possible and forgo rez if I bring a scroll. Besides people like scrolls better.

WTB plant fiber.

Sure if you hate being rich. If I have to use a scroll everytime I PUG, I would be a lot poorer than I am since puggers die so often. Scrolls are an unnecessary gold sink. Besides scrolls would not help much if monsters are camping the bodies. 25%hp and 0 energy is not exactly fantastic either and works better if the bodies clump together.

@Zahr: Stop trolling.

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 29, 2010, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

@Zahr: Stop trolling.

Don't use that horrible, inaccurate expression then.

On-topic: when monking, I sometimes carry a res. When doing H/H, I never carry a res.

I should probably get a few scrolls on hand, though.

qvtkc · Feb 02, 2010, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by bj91x

I couldn't disagree with this more. When I'm playing with h/h, I don't bring a res skill. There's no need to. Things go as I planned pretty much every time and in case something goes wrong, my 3 heroes have res skills. However, when I PUG, I bring Rebirth if I don't need to use my 2ndary profession (with the exception of missions where running then rebirthing isn't much of an option). This is because PUG is unpredictable and I don't know if we're going to encounter a wipe situation.

Healers don't need 8 skills to heal effectively, just like DPS players don't need 8 skills to DPS effectively. Being a veteran, I know ahead of time when things will go sour. Bringing Rebirth makes it that much easier to res my teammates when I'm one of the only players to have run to safety preventing a full wipe. I'm I'm a healer, I'm usually the farthest from danger and it's much easier to run to safety since I'm the farthest from the enemies.

My heroes follow a similar rule. All my non-healer heroes bring res skills that can be used in battle. All my healers bring Rebirth. This is because of the reason I stated above; Healers are the farthest from the enemies and the easiest to run to prevent full wipe when things go bad.

Apparently I do need to explain step 3. Ok follow because this is a quick explanation.

There are three main rez situations: combat, post-combat, and near-wipe recovery.
Healers should not combat rez because if they stop healing, people die.
Thus, combat rez should be handled by non-healers.
Thus, non-healers bring rez, which means that post-combat rez could be handled by non-healers, as well.
So the healer doesn't need a rez for those two situations.
Which leaves NWR. If the healer is the only one left alive, he should rez...
But on the other hand, near-wipes (and complete wipes too) usually happens because the healer died.
Thus the only reason a healer should have a rez is if something that almost never happens, happen.
That's like wearing shoes when you sleep just in case you'd sleepwalk.

MasterSasori · Feb 02, 2010, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Sure if you hate being rich. If I have to use a scroll everytime I PUG, I would be a lot poorer than I am since puggers die so often. Scrolls are an unnecessary gold sink. Besides scrolls would not help much if monsters are camping the bodies. 25%hp and 0 energy is not exactly fantastic either and works better if the bodies clump together.

@Zahr: Stop trolling.

You pretend you don't have a rez unless you're sure that everyone else who has one has already used theirs or is dead.

And scrolls do help if monsters are camping the bodies. Much better than Rebirth since it's instant and everyone revives at the same time. Sure in the process of running away, probably 50% of them die again but in such a short time that no additional DP is present and some people do manage to survive in the massacre. It might call for another scroll but hopefully it won't. In pugs, the group normally kicks the bucket in the same area.

If you don't want to waste money then consider spending that extra minute to make sure the pug are running rez and aren't complete morons.

Daesu · Feb 02, 2010, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

You pretend you don't have a rez unless you're sure that everyone else who has one has already used theirs or is dead.

Tried that before, and you would be surprised how many PUG players do not actually bring a res. Maybe they have a res scroll but they are just not telling so that others would use theirs, OR they just dont want to invest their scrolls in a team that sucks.

Quote:

And scrolls do help if monsters are camping the bodies. Much better than Rebirth since it's instant and everyone revives at the same time. Sure in the process of running away, probably 50% of them die again but in such a short time that no additional DP is present and some people do manage to survive in the massacre. It might call for another scroll but hopefully it won't. In pugs, the group normally kicks the bucket in the same area.

Normally if the team dies except for me. I would still prefer rebirth because reviving with scrolls within monster aggro will risk additional DP to the team since scrolls only res at 25%hp and 0% energy. In HM accumulating DP too fast, can make the team useless since monster damage is so great.

Sacrificing scrolls after scrolls, without DP removal, would just suck. Besides if your PUG team plainly consists of mostly morons and leeroys all over the place, is it really worth investing all your consummables just to force them through the mission? When I could have just quit the team in town, and if no other good teams were around, do it easily with my 2 accounts and 6 heroes?

Quote:

If you don't want to waste money then consider spending that extra minute to make sure the pug are running rez and aren't complete morons.

Some times the only guys with the res are among the dead. There is no way you can tell if a pug member knows how to pull or leeroys all over the place, unless you know the guy before. Even if they copy a pvx build, that doesn't necessarily imply that they understand PvE 101 and these are the people are investing your cons on. Also, if the team dies in a pug situation, chances are higher that people you have used your res scroll on, may give up and just leave the game.

MasterSasori · Feb 03, 2010, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Tried that before, and you would be surprised how many PUG players do not actually bring a res. Maybe they have a res scroll but they are just not telling so that others would use theirs, OR they just dont want to invest their scrolls in a team that sucks.

It is not surprising because I pug often and I know that the usual pug does not usually have more than 4 copies of rez. If they didn't want to invest scrolls in a team that sucks then they should have considered H&H. Pugging comes with risk and benefits and if you want to reap those benefits, then you should also be prepared to face those risks as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Normally if the team dies except for me. I would still prefer rebirth because reviving with scrolls within monster aggro will risk additional DP to the team since scrolls only res at 25%hp and 0% energy. In HM accumulating DP too fast, can make the team useless since monster damage is so great.

I'm not understanding your argument here. Rezzing with Rebirth is the same as using a Scroll except it takes 5 seconds and rapes your energy and skills. You don't have to revive everyone with a single scroll; you can just rez one or two person and not get aggro.

If you choose to revive more than one person at a time and pray for a mass exodus with minimal casualties, I want to point out that the newly rez people have 5 seconds to die without incurring additional DP. If you are likely to die, you're probably going to die in those 5 seconds anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Sacrificing scrolls after scrolls, without DP removal, would just suck. Besides if your PUG team plainly consists of mostly morons and leeroys all over the place, is it really worth investing all your consummables just to force them through the mission? When I could have just quit the team in town, and if no other good teams were around, do it easily with my 2 accounts and 6 heroes?

Saccing scrolls after scrolls because you don't have DP removal on your part means you're unprepared or just stupid for only preparing for one part of a scenario where there are other parts that should be addressed.

If you don't think the pug are worth the consum then the options are simple. 1) dont pug or 2) dont use the consum. When mentioning H&H, the vast majority of PvE can be H&H, so you only pug when you want human interaction. If you don't want to deal with pugs then by all means, don't. You'll also save yourself mucho dinero in addition to unneeded grievance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Some times the only guys with the res are among the dead. There is no way you can tell if a pug member knows how to pull or leeroys all over the place, unless you know the guy before. Even if they copy a pvx build, that doesn't necessarily imply that they understand PvE 101 and these are the people are investing your cons on. Also, if the team dies in a pug situation, chances are higher that people you have used your res scroll on, may give up and just leave the game.

Yes sometimes those with rez are often among the dead, but since they had rez in the first place, they should have kept in mind how important it was for them to stay alive in the first place.

You can't always tell how a pug member will perform, but with experience, there are a few tics that clue you off subconciously. One way you can always be sure how good a pull is if you do it yourself. If you are excellent at pulling, then do the team a favor and do so. If you suck, then do the team a favor and don't attempt.

Being supportive of your pug fosters a better attitude among the group. Even if the entire team is pretty horrible, people can still enjoy the challenge and each other's company. Encouragement will also help keep people from leaving.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2010, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I'm not understanding your argument here. Rezzing with Rebirth is the same as using a Scroll except it takes 5 seconds and rapes your energy and skills. You don't have to revive everyone with a single scroll; you can just rez one or two person and not get aggro.

It doesn't matter if Rebirth brings your energy to zero because if you are smart, you only use it outside of aggro range. It is not meant to be used during combat. Scroll is only shout range and doesn't teleport the guy to you so when you revive them with 25%hp and 0e within monster aggro, they die. That is a big difference.

Quote:

Saccing scrolls after scrolls because you don't have DP removal on your part means you're unprepared or just stupid for only preparing for one part of a scenario where there are other parts that should be addressed.

Only a moron would invest all his cons on a failed team. If the team just cant work together, it is better to just leave and find another team that can.

Quote:

You can't always tell how a pug member will perform, but with experience, there are a few tics that clue you off subconciously. One way you can always be sure how good a pull is if you do it yourself.

And by the time you get to see their skills (or lack of them), it is already too late because you have already entered the game with them and invested time.

Quote:

Being supportive of your pug fosters a better attitude among the group. Even if the entire team is pretty horrible, people can still enjoy the challenge and each other's company. Encouragement will also help keep people from leaving.

Everytime someone tries to encourage the team people start to leave.

You should know when to give up than keep throwing cons away stupidly. Even if you dont give up, others in the team would see how bad it is and start to leave also. Doesn't matter if you have wasted cons on the mission or not.

HigherMinion · Feb 03, 2010, 09:16 AM // 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Everytime someone tries to encourage the team people start to leave.

You should know when to give up than keep throwing cons away stupidly. Even if you dont give up, others in the team would see how bad it is and start to leave also. Doesn't matter if you have wasted cons on the mission or not.

Christ... Why do you people always assume pugs to be that awful? To get past the factor of seeing their bad skills, it's your fault for not looking at them in an outpost and making them change/suggest something/kick.

If it's your PUG party, you have more control over the players than you probably think, assuming your mentality as "PUGs are stupid. I don't know him, therefore he is stupid." Illogical and silly. If you're not happy with how they're playing, turn them into "Heroes" make them target your call, tell them to spam T-space, it's reallly not hard.

If you are a good player, you should have successful PUGs.

The Josip · Feb 03, 2010, 10:43 AM // 10:43

The thing is, a lot of us don't feel like bothering anymore with team organization. It's tedious sometimes and lasts too long. Sometimes we just want to jump into a group, press "1" and go. That is, if group looks decent enough (when I see WMo I still ragequit).

Sometimes organizing a PuG group feels more like babysitting than actually playing the game and having fun. When I join a PuG group I should be able to expect some decent skillbar that can aid the team in achieving the goal, and some decent playing skill because it's HM after all so person finished the campaign (unless bought account that is).

This is for general HM areas, of course that better organization should be sought for some more difficult ones.

qvtkc · Feb 03, 2010, 02:51 PM // 14:51

To me, playing fast&free makes the adventure that much more fun. But you pack your parachute before you jump, don't you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Sometimes organizing a PuG group feels more like babysitting than actually playing the game and having fun. When I join a PuG group I should be able to expect some decent skillbar that can aid the team in achieving the goal, and some decent playing skill because it's HM after all so person finished the campaign (unless bought account that is).

Drop those expectations.

Sure enough they finshed the NM campaign, but what does that mean? 3 heroes with default builds and equipment + 4 henchmen can, if flagged ahead of you, clear out nearly anything in NM. If you have problems then just find one guy who did it before and he'll breeze you right through. You don't need skill to complete NM.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2010, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

If you are a good player, you should have successful PUGs.

That doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Anyway, if I really need to pass the mission and have no time to spare, I would call my guild or use my heroes. I only PUG if I have time to spare for the drama.

Sure I bitch about pugs just like everyone else, but I have always expected most of them to be bad anyway, no surprises there.

I would invest gold/cons on a worth while team, just like I would invest my money on a good game. But I am not so dumb as to keep pouring all my cons on a bad team just to get all of them through the mission. You are not helping them if they dont feel the pain of their own mistakes.

If I can go through all the campaigns myself in HM without using a single con, any decent player should be able to do that. People are over reliant on cons like a crutch nowadays.

Yasmine · Feb 03, 2010, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

It doesn't matter if Rebirth brings your energy to zero because if you are smart, you only use it outside of aggro range. It is not meant to be used during combat. Scroll is only shout range and doesn't teleport the guy to you so when you revive them with 25%hp and 0e within monster aggro, they die. That is a big difference.

Actually, they are teleported at your location. And the shout range is only slightly shorten then spells one, so, considering that most of the time enemies are moving, I'd say that usually the res scroll will do a better job then rebirth.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2010, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasmine

Actually, they are teleported at your location. And the shout range is only slightly shorten then spells one, so, considering that most of the time enemies are moving, I'd say that usually the res scroll will do a better job then rebirth.

Yes you are right, they do get to your location, but their shorter range makes it easier to aggro monsters.

The point is, I dont waste my cons to stop PUGs from learning from their own stupid mistakes. On a well prepared team, you should not be facing any team wipes so there should be enough res skills around. If you are facing team wipes, instead of using cons like scrolls, you should be thinking what is wrong with your strategy.

MasterSasori · Feb 03, 2010, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

It doesn't matter if Rebirth brings your energy to zero because if you are smart, you only use it outside of aggro range. It is not meant to be used during combat. Scroll is only shout range and doesn't teleport the guy to you so when you revive them with 25%hp and 0e within monster aggro, they die. That is a big difference.

Scrolls teleport you to your location. I doubt the shout vs the spell range is all that different but one thing that is noticeable? No energy and 5 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Only a moron would invest all his cons on a failed team. If the team just cant work together, it is better to just leave and find another team that can.

Or if you're really smart and don't want to deal with this, you should have went with friends/guildies or H&H.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Everytime someone tries to encourage the team people start to leave.

You should know when to give up than keep throwing cons away stupidly. Even if you dont give up, others in the team would see how bad it is and start to leave also. Doesn't matter if you have wasted cons on the mission or not.

Whenever there is nonsarcastic encouragement, I find the opposite to be true. This is subjective and there is no point to argue this. If they leave, then that just shows how replaceable pugs are with H&Hs but for some reason they CHOSE to pug. They took the risk of pugging and therefore need to take all in all consequences of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Anyway, if I really need to pass the mission and have no time to spare, I would call my guild or use my heroes. I only PUG if I have time to spare for the drama.

Sure I bitch about pugs just like everyone else, but I have always expected most of them to be bad anyway, no surprises there.

I would invest gold/cons on a worth while team, just like I would invest my money on a good game. But I am not so dumb as to keep pouring all my cons on a bad team just to get all of them through the mission. You are not helping them if they dont feel the pain of their own mistakes.

No one stated anything about pouring cons on a fail team. You should pug only because you want to pug.

Spending time is essentially spending money. I see little difference so if you are going to pug, be ready to invest. I'm not saying that you should stick around terribad people or waste money on them but if you're not going to go a bit out of your way, then save everyone some grief and don't pug.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

Scrolls teleport you to your location. I doubt the shout vs the spell range is all that different but one thing that is noticeable? No energy and 5 seconds.

Again, that doesn't matter if you are not in combat and there are no monsters within aggro range. Even if you use scrolls, your dead team mates also res with 0 energy. So take the waiting time to think back what your team did wrong.

Quote:

Or if you're really smart and don't want to deal with this, you should have went with friends/guildies or H&H.

Where is the drama if you have free time to burn?

Quote:

Spending time is essentially spending money. I see little difference so if you are going to pug, be ready to invest. I'm not saying that you should stick around terribad people or waste money on them but if you're not going to go a bit out of your way, then save everyone some grief and don't pug.

I PUG not because I have no other choices to clear that mission. I pug to watch the drama and it is not fun to throw cons at people who need to learn the hard way, so I pug without cons and tried to give advice if they are willing to listen. If I run out of time and all pugs failed, I would simply take my heroes and clear it once and for all. I dont see why you HAVE TO bring cons when you pug. Throwing power stones at your pug would not make them any better players.

khezial tahr · Feb 03, 2010, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

If you are a good player, you should have successful PUGs.

Seriously? What does my skill or skill bar have to do with 7 other people's level of skill? Anyone can copy skills form pvx. Knowing what to do with them and how to play the game is something different. If this statement were true, nobody would have bad PUGs.

MasterSasori · Feb 03, 2010, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Again, that doesn't matter if you are not in combat and there are no monsters within aggro range. Even if you use scrolls, your dead team mates also res with 0 energy. So take the waiting time to think back what your team did wrong.

5 seconds saved with your energy intact ensure that you're not a sitting duck. And if you're not in aggro range then why does it even matter what rez you are using?

And why wait if you're willing to use a scroll? The reasons why a wipe occurs can be figured out by the time there is a single rebirth anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I PUG not because I have no other choices to clear that mission. I pug to watch the drama and it is not fun to throw cons at people who need to learn the hard way, so I pug without cons and tried to give advice if they are willing to listen. If I run out of time and all pugs failed, I would simply take my heroes and clear it once and for all. I dont see why you HAVE TO bring cons when you pug. Throwing power stones at your pug would not make them any better players.

Where are you getting all these ideas that I never mentioned?

I never stated that you have no other choice. If you read my earlier posts I said that pugging is a choice. If you pug to watch the "drama," then surely leeroying retards and inflated egos must in some way not be terrible enough to deter you from pugging?

I never stated you HAVE to bring cons, it's because you choose to do so just like you choose to pug. If you are comparing Rebirth v. Scrolls, there is no "lesson" or advantage the skill has over scrolls other than money. If you're not willing to pay up for pugs then deal with the pug as it is or just leave. But if you can't deal with the pug from the beginning, just stick with your H&H. If you want drama, then prepare to deal with retards.

Daesu · Feb 03, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

5 seconds saved with your energy intact ensure that you're not a sitting duck. And if you're not in aggro range then why does it even matter what rez you are using?

And why wait if you're willing to use a scroll? The reasons why a wipe occurs can be figured out by the time there is a single rebirth anyway.

It matters at what range you are using it and cons only promotes a lazy play style.

Quote:

I never stated that you have no other choice. If you read my earlier posts I said that pugging is a choice. If you pug to watch the "drama," then surely leeroying retards and inflated egos must in some way not be terrible enough to deter you from pugging?

I have never said it deters me from pugging.

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I never stated you HAVE to bring cons, it's because you choose to do so just like you choose to pug.

No, just because you decide to pug doesn't necessarily mean you have to (or choose to) bring cons.

Quote:

If you are comparing Rebirth v. Scrolls, there is no "lesson" or advantage the skill has over scrolls other than money. If you're not willing to pay up for pugs then deal with the pug as it is or just leave. But if you can't deal with the pug from the beginning, just stick with your H&H. If you want drama, then prepare to deal with retards.

Where did I say I can't deal with pugs? I just am just disagreeing with you that you should bring cons to pugs. If the pug is set to fail, then let them fail. That way people can learn from their mistakes instead of covering it up with cons.

MasterSasori · Feb 03, 2010, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

No, just because you decide to pug doesn't necessarily mean you have to (or choose to) bring cons.

Precisely my point. It's all optional. Cons, Pugs, all of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Where did I say I can't deal with pugs? I just am just disagreeing with you that you should bring cons to pugs. If the pug is set to fail, then let them fail. That way people can learn from their mistakes instead of covering it up with cons.

I never said you can't deal with pugs. But you imply that you don't want to because of bad actions or people.

I never state that you should bring cons but it does help and the reasoning is the same: if your going to invest time in a pug, you might as well invest money because its the same thing. And it can be a better option if you want to leave skills out of your bar but need rez, ias, ect.

The overwhelming power of PvE skills make it so that people don't need to learn from their mistakes. Even without consets.